Man of Steel (June 14th, 2013)

[Ronthis the Werewolf]

I try guys D:

[Mariolee]

Ronthis has actually never seen it...

I know.

Okay okay, this whole joke thing has gone too far.
But seriously, of course he's seen it. You guys are pulling a fast one on ol' Mariolee right?

Right?

[TheNiceGuy]

Not watching the dark knight is like not ever looking in a mirror, you never know who you are until you do it.

[YoshiStar]

Not watching the dark knight is like not ever looking in a mirror, you never know who you are until you do it.

I disagree. The Dark Knight trilogy is overrated. It's great, but not as mindblowingly exceptional and amazing as everyone makes it out to be.

[Ronthis the Werewolf]

Didn't I just go over this whole parents thing?

[Mariolee]

Didn't I just go over this whole parents thing?

Where? I didn't see it in this thread, so excuse me princess.

[TheNiceGuy]

I disagree. The Dark Knight trilogy is overrated. It's great, but not as mindblowingly exceptional and amazing as everyone makes it out to be.

Yeah I know. I'm just making ronthis feel bad lol. I think the reason people like it so much is because of mainly Batman Forever and Batman & Robin. They were so unrealistic and terrible, and tried to change what he stands for. Nobody was scared of him, and he was perfectly fine with letting villains die... So I guess we're just thankfull for this trilogy.
It's still really good tho.

[Vekta101]

Then you simply haven't read the right comics (or any of the Superman comics for that matter). Like Stevencho said, he is not human, and you can see in a lot of the comics and in the films that there's this huge inner conflict inside of him, with the knowledge that he'll never fit in and that people feel he has a responsibility to help everyone when that's simply impossible. Being a superhero is a thankless job. He may have saved hundreds, but if he for whatever reason is unable to save another hundred from a natural disaster or whatever, even if it was impossible for him, he will still be blamed and they would cast him out.

There's also the idea of restraint around others. I mean, he can crush a doorknob with the tiniest little thrust, heck, he could crush a human hand with the tiniest thrust. It's like if you lived in a world where everything and everyone was made out of paper. I don't think this concept is executed nearly enough in any medium Superman has appeared in, but I feel as if it is one of the most important.

If you have anytime, I'd advocate reading or watching the movie "All-Star Superman", "Superman: The Red Son", "Superman: For All Seasons", but most importantly "Superman: Birthright" since it seems this film is taking elements from that. Pretty much none of these are canon, but that's mostly because I don't enjoy the convuluted DC universe comics, and like little self contained stories that really get to the grit of what the character is about.

I haven't read any comics, full stop. As I've explained previously, they always appealed to me when I was younger but where I came from (Western suburbs of Sydney, Australia) there was no such thing as a comic shop. I really wish I could have but I'm pretty much basing my opinion of Superman from what I've seen of the movies and TV shows over the years. The basic plot has always been: Superman holds back until he decides "enough is enough" and then unleashes his full power and kicks everyone's ass.

What you're saying about him could really be said about any superhero. They feel out of place in a world of normal humans, they are in an intensely stressful situation where the slightest failure makes all of their successes seem obsolete to the public, internal struggle, etc. It's pretty much a stock standard of all superheroes to feel like that after they get over the initial high of "yeah, I'm a superhero, the public loves me for saving them when they thought all hope was lost". If what you're saying is; the heart of the character is that his stock powers take the focus off how flash the powers and gimmick are and allow more focus on the person inside and his internal conflict then I respectfully disagree. As far as my understanding stretches Superman was always the classic and original superhero whose sole appeal is that he's the.. classic and original superhero. He's the archetype, the epitome, the standard. Superheroes who emerged after Superman have been about "look at how cool my powers are" and "look at how much I struggle day-to-day". That's never been the appeal of Superman in my eyes and I'm sure if you ask almost anybody "why is Superman good" they'll say some variant of "because he's fucking Superman".

If the appeal of the character for you is his internal conflict etc. then that's great and all (no sarcasm) but to most people he's the icon of all superheroes and nothing more.

What I've always found interesting with Superman is the conflict within himself. He can never truly fit into society because he will never be human. He is truly alone in the universe and can never really form a true relaionship with anyone else. And also the whole idea of his identity. Is he Clark Kent who comes up with the identity of Superman in order to be able to become the world's savior but without endangering those close to him? Or is he really Superman who merely uses the identity of Clark Kent when he needs to be less conspicuous and to lead a somewhat normal life?

And as for Superman being too powerful, there are many villains that are just as powerful if not more powerful than him.

As I said above, the same can be said about almost every superhero.

I haven't seen any superhero movies or shows in years but the only villain I can think of when I think of him is Lex Luthor, who as I said is a regular human who happens to be an evil genius. Trying to overcome physical limitations using intellect and sheer willpower to defeat an opponent who could physically crush you... sounds a lot like what most superheroes do, too, huh.

If you're right and majority of Superman's villains are in his league of power then that's great but I have never heard of them. Even then, I still think the power levels get too high to be interesting. What was better the better Neo vs. Smith fight scene from The Matrix trilogy? The one where they were both so powerful they caused atom bomb levels of collateral damage by merely punching each other... or the one where Neo mustered enough self-belief to finally overcome the odds and defeat the all-powerful Agent? When two people with Superman's power fight it becomes just like the post-Frieza series' of Dragonball Z. Two people lob energy balls at each other until one says "screw you guys I'm going home". Conflict is much more engaging on the human level because it's relatable to us.

That's all just my opinion, though. Like I said, I'm genuinely interested in this movie as I like Zack Snyder as a director very much, I just think that he should stick to directing and not writing. Three of his movies (Dawn of the Dead, Watchmen and 300) are, in my opinion among the best films of their respective categories; zombies, superheroes and historical fiction/ancient war. If anyone can pull off a Superman movie and make it a really engaging experience without the usual rehashing shlock, it's him.

[Mariolee]

I haven't read any comics, full stop. As I've explained previously, they always appealed to me when I was younger but where I came from (Western suburbs of Sydney, Australia) there was no such thing as a comic shop. I really wish I could have but I'm pretty much basing my opinion of Superman from what I've seen of the movies and TV shows over the years. The basic plot has always been: Superman holds back until he decides "enough is enough" and then unleashes his full power and kicks everyone's ass.

What you're saying about him could really be said about any superhero. They feel out of place in a world of normal humans, they are in an intensely stressful situation where the slightest failure makes all of their successes seem obsolete to the public, internal struggle, etc. It's pretty much a stock standard of all superheroes to feel like that after they get over the initial high of "yeah, I'm a superhero, the public loves me for saving them when they thought all hope was lost". If what you're saying is; the heart of the character is that his stock powers take the focus off how flash the powers and gimmick are and allow more focus on the person inside and his internal conflict then I respectfully disagree. As far as my understanding stretches Superman was always the classic and original superhero whose sole appeal is that he's the.. classic and original superhero. He's the archetype, the epitome, the standard. Superheroes who emerged after Superman have been about "look at how cool my powers are" and "look at how much I struggle day-to-day". That's never been the appeal of Superman in my eyes and I'm sure if you ask almost anybody "why is Superman good" they'll say some variant of "because he's fucking Superman".

If the appeal of the character for you is his internal conflict etc. then that's great and all (no sarcasm) but to most people he's the icon of all superheroes and nothing more.

Well, I see that for some reason you almost ignored the "whole world is made of paper restraint" I was talking about earlier, as that's also an integral part of his character. The reason you've only seen the simple story of Superman holding back his powers until enough is enough is because the movie adaptations have always been simple in what they tried to accomplish, which is Superman is a boy scout. The animated TV show, although reaching surprising depth at times, also fell victim to this due to being aimed at children.

Yeah, it's the stock standard of many superheroes, but it's the details that make Superman different. I don't know how exactly the saying goes, but pretty much every "hero story" has been told, it's HOW it's told that changes all the time. The thing about Superman is the theory of the self-made man that was prevalent towards the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century, and Superman was the first example of that. So yes, part of the appeal is that Superman was the first to establish all the superhero archetypes.

Secondly, it's his relation to dealing with two different cultures: his alien side and his human side. I don't know if this relates to people who've always been under the influence of a single way of life, but as an Indonesian kid growing up in an American and very liberal environment, I can relate to having to decide which culture I have to follow at which times. This is emphasized more when he has to deal with his Earth father and his Krypton father through the Fortress of Solitude.

But what makes Superman truly amazing is his humbleness. I think this quote says it best:

In Superman/Batman #3, Batman says, "It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then...he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him."

I'm kinda sleepy right now, and I'm sure I could name off a few more, but I'd rather take a nap. Hopefully you at least wiki some of the comic books I recommended to get a better understanding of why Superman is so prevalent.

[Vekta101]

Well, I see that for some reason you almost ignored the "whole world is made of paper restraint" I was talking about earlier, as that's also an integral part of his character. The reason you've only seen the simple story of Superman holding back his powers until enough is enough is because the movie adaptations have always been simple in what they tried to accomplish, which is Superman is a boy scout. The animated TV show, although reaching surprising depth at times, also fell victim to this due to being aimed at children.

I didn't comment on it specifically but it fit in with "pretty much every superhero has this same trope" that I already said. He's way more powerful than most superheroes so it's just a bigger problem.

Yeah, it's the stock standard of many superheroes, but it's the details that make Superman different. I don't know how exactly the saying goes, but pretty much every "hero story" has been told, it's HOW it's told that changes all the time. The thing about Superman is the theory of the self-made man that was prevalent towards the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century, and Superman was the first example of that. So yes, part of the appeal is that Superman was the first to establish all the superhero archetypes.

I am very aware of that. I know that it's how the story is told that's important.

Secondly, it's his relation to dealing with two different cultures: his alien side and his human side. I don't know if this relates to people who've always been under the influence of a single way of life, but as an Indonesian kid growing up in an American and very liberal environment, I can relate to having to decide which culture I have to follow at which times. This is emphasized more when he has to deal with his Earth father and his Krypton father through the Fortress of Solitude.

But what makes Superman truly amazing is his humbleness. I think this quote says it best:

I'm kinda sleepy right now, and I'm sure I could name off a few more, but I'd rather take a nap. Hopefully you at least wiki some of the comic books I recommended to get a better understanding of why Superman is so prevalent.

Overall I don't see how anything you're saying is a counterpoint. All that I argued is: that Superman doesn't have any attribute about himself that stands out and makes himself interesting among a plethora of other superheroes. He serves as a cultural icon and is the archetype of superheroes everywhere. Originally all that you said was that it's the internal struggles etc that make him interesting. All I said was that internal struggles isn't anything unique. I also disagreed that that is what makes Superman famous. He's famous because he's an icon and the original. Whatever subtle characterisations are in certain comics of his isn't something I have to worry about as a movie watcher. If you're trying to convince me that "it's going to be good because they haven't tapped into his potential" then it's kind of redundant since I'm admitting the film has promise and shouldn't be just another dumb Superman remake.

[Unknown Flames]

http://moviepilot.com/567546-man-of-...fb-stream-post

Not sure how I feel about this.

[Scorpion Soldier]

http://moviepilot.com/567546-man-of-...fb-stream-post

Not sure how I feel about this.

As much as i think the old theme is great, i think it's a good thing they're leaving it out. It's a new take on the character. Superman Returns had the theme in it because it was a continuation, this one on the other hand has no ties at all to the previous franchise. Plus i think it needs a theme that's more suited to the tone of the movie, as i really feel the Williams theme, as great as it sounds would terribly out of place looking at the Comic Con footage. I hope Hans Zimmer can do Superman as much justice as he did with the Batman franchise(though let us not forget, James Newton Howard also deserved credit on that one.)

[Eggboy'13]

http://moviepilot.com/567546-man-of-...fb-stream-post

Not sure how I feel about this.

We've known this forever.
I'm totally alright with this. Imagine if The Dark Knight used the Danny Elfman theme?

[Luigi53]

I'm totally alright with this. Imagine if The Dark Knight used the Danny Elfman theme?

Well, Superman without the Superman theme is like Pee-Wee Herman without his bow-tie!

[Eggboy'13]

Well, Superman without the Superman theme is like Pee-Wee Herman without his bow-tie!

Bullshit, I say. Some would have said that about Batman with Hans Zimmer, but look how that turned out.

[Luigi53]

Bullshit, I say. Some would have said that about Batman with Hans Zimmer, but look how that turned out.

Well, when I think of Superman, I think of THAT song. Batman's had so many themes it isn't that strange for one not to return. Sure, they've returned in the Lego Batman games (Or atleast the first one.). But still, that song has been used in nearly everything Superman related since the first film came out. I'm still going to see the film and everything, but I still find it a little odd to not use it at all. Well, you never know, they might use it in the credits or something.

[Crotale]

I, for one, hope they do not use the older theme at all. It would add nothing to the movie, as this is a reboot.

[Eggboy'13]

New poster released today.
Looks pretty sweet.

[Strike the Wolf]

Holy. Shit.

[Lestat_the_vampire]

Holy. Shit.

Holy. Hot Damn. Son of a bitch. I am not a huge Superman fan, as I really reserved my superhero love for Batman and the likes, but that trailer makes me want Summer 2013 to be here right now. I can only hope that this movie turns out to be as good as the trailer makes it out to be.