The Religious Discussion Thread

[YoshiStar]

What is the purpose of prayer?

Situation:

1) Everything is pre-determined through fate/destiny. We have a set path that our lives follow, as does everyone else. At the end of our lives we accomplish everything we are meant to do. If that is the case, then praying cannot change our path, because it is already determined. Everything that happens to us is meant to happen, regardless of whether or not we pray about it.

2) We have free will, as does everyone else, and our lives are determined by our actions, experiences, attitudes, and decisions. In which case, praying still does nothing, because our lives are determined by what we make of them, rather than devine intervention.

Even the Butterfly Effect says that a change to the smallest part of God's plan will cause a ripple effect that changes every other aspect of the plan. We're talking about the creator of the universe... the divine plan for everyone that has lived and ever will... what are the chances that one prayer from one person is going to change ANYTHING about his plan? It's already put in motion. What makes us think our influence is so great on the almighty that we can do anything to change his mind?

Therefore: What is the purpose of prayer, if not to change God's plan?

It's just for hope. Rather than do nothing and accept a bad situation, people want to believe that they CAN do something about it or that things may get better. Other than that ... I have no idea. If you believe in prayer, the placebo effect can kick in?

[KoopaDasher]

It's just for hope. Rather than do nothing and accept a bad situation, people want to believe that they CAN do something about it or that things may get better. Other than that ... I have no idea. If you believe in prayer, the placebo effect can kick in?

But the entire basis for Christianity is the idea that if you pray, God will listen and give you what you need. There are many, many cases in the Bible when that happens. But it fails the Common Sense test. What if I pray for rain, and you pray for no rain? Does it rain? How does God decide? And regardless of what happens, if it deviates from his plan at all, it changes nearly every aspect of the rest of the plan. The point being... the only logical conclusion is that prayer does nothing in the religious sense. It seems to only offer comfort, solace, hope, and a feeling of control.

[stevencho]

This question is for anyone, religious or non. Do you believe in fate? Destiny? The idea that your life is pre-determined, that there is an ultimate goal for you to reach?

Or do you believe in free will, that your life is what you make of it and the path that you take is dependent on your experiences and mistakes?

Or a mix of both?

I'm going to take this from a strictly biblical standpoint.

God has given us the gift of free will, or freedom of choice. This makes us unique among his earthly creation. We can choose whether we will follow God’s moral guidance or not. That is why the prophet Moses could say: “I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him.”—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

The gift of freedom of choice, though, does not mean absolute freedom. It does not free us from the physical and moral laws that God made for the stability and peace of the universe. These laws were set up for our good, and any violation of them could lead to serious consequences. Such as if we chose to ignore the law of gravity and jumped off the roof of a tall building. Our fate would only have one outcome.

Freedom of choice also binds us with a great responsibility. The writer Corliss Lamont asks: “How can we attribute ethical responsibility to men, and punish them for wrongdoing, if we accept... that their choices and actions are predetermined?” Of course, we cannot. Instinct-driven animals are not held morally responsible for what they do, nor are computers deemed accountable for the functions they are programmed to perform. Freedom of choice, then, places upon us a heavy responsibility and makes us accountable for our actions.

It would be very unloving and unjust on God's part if before we were born, he predetermined the course we would take and then held us responsible for our actions! He doesn't do this, for “God is love,” and “all his ways are justice.” (1 John 4:8; Deuteronomy 32:4) Having given us freedom of choice, he did not at the same time ‘determine from eternity whom he would save and whom he would damn,’ as believers in predestination claim.

The Bible clearly shows that the choices we make will alter our destiny. For example, God appeals to wrongdoers, saying: “Turn back, please, every one from his bad way and from the badness of your dealings... that I may not cause calamity to you.” (Jeremiah 25:5, 6) This appeal would be pointless if God had already fixed each individual’s destiny. Moreover, God’s Word states: “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah.” (Acts 3:19) Why would God ask people to repent and turn around if he knew beforehand that they could do absolutely nothing to change their destiny?

Freedom of choice makes predestination impossible.

What is the purpose of prayer?

Situation:

1) Everything is pre-determined through fate/destiny. We have a set path that our lives follow, as does everyone else. At the end of our lives we accomplish everything we are meant to do. If that is the case, then praying cannot change our path, because it is already determined. Everything that happens to us is meant to happen, regardless of whether or not we pray about it.

2) We have free will, as does everyone else, and our lives are determined by our actions, experiences, attitudes, and decisions. In which case, praying still does nothing, because our lives are determined by what we make of them, rather than devine intervention.

Even the Butterfly Effect says that a change to the smallest part of God's plan will cause a ripple effect that changes every other aspect of the plan. We're talking about the creator of the universe... the divine plan for everyone that has lived and ever will... what are the chances that one prayer from one person is going to change ANYTHING about his plan? It's already put in motion. What makes us think our influence is so great on the almighty that we can do anything to change his mind?

Therefore: What is the purpose of prayer, if not to change God's plan?

Being infinite in power and matchless in wisdom, God can meet any emergency or circumstance that might result as his creatures exercise their free will. (Isaiah 40:25, 26; Romans 11:33) He can do this instantly and without forethought. Unlike fallible men with their limited abilities, Almighty God does not need a detailed, cut-and-dried plan that sets out beforehand the destiny of every individual on the earth. (Proverbs 19:21)

In fact the Scriptures never speak of God as planning. He doesn't need to plan. Whatever he purposes is sure to succeed because of his infinite wisdom and power, Ephesians 1:9, 10 reads: “It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times.” God has an “eternal purpose” rather than a fixed plan. It is God's ultimate purpose, the final result, that remains unchanged. The plan or path he takes to get there can most certainly be modified.

[beardedwalrus]

stuff

You know man, I may think what you're talking about is silly, but I respect the hell out of you. It's refreshing to see a religious person that at least knows what he's believing in, since every day I'm surrounded by people who claim to be followers of Christ but don't know jack shit about what it even means to be a Christian. Whether it's something I personally agree with or not, you know what you're talking about.

[KoopaDasher]

Lots of Stuff

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear. I asked another Christian friend of mine about this, and he gave me these vague, grayish answers about God's will, and none of it answered my question, so finally I thought "Screw it, Ima go ask stevencho". You always know the answers to my questions, whereas most people want to condemn others using their religion without actually knowing their religion.

That being said, after reading that, I'm SO glad I'm an atheist.

[stevencho]

You know man, I may think what you're talking about is silly, but I respect the hell out of you. It's refreshing to see a religious person that at least knows what he's believing in, since every day I'm surrounded by people who claim to be followers of Christ but don't know jack shit about what it even means to be a Christian. Whether it's something I personally agree with or not, you know what you're talking about.

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear. I asked another Christian friend of mine about this, and he gave me these vague, grayish answers about God's will, and none of it answered my question, so finally I thought "Screw it, Ima go ask stevencho". You always know the answers to my questions, whereas most people want to condemn others using their religion without actually knowing their religion.

To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree".

That being said, after reading that, I'm SO glad I'm an atheist.

Why do you say that?

[YoshiStar]

To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree".

Ooh ooh ooh! That's an awesome quote.

[Mariolee]

To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree".

I love you Stevencho. Where were you a couple of pages ago with Koopa, beardedwalrus, and my debate? You would've handled it a lot better than I did haha

[YoshiStar]

Gay people are superior to straight people. Straight people will all go to hell and gay people will go to heaven. If you disagree, then you will be sent to hell.

Btw, what I say in this post is the word of God. It comes from divine inspiration.
"But wait YoshiStar, how can you be sure it's the word of God?"
Because this post says it's the word of God.
"But wait, why believe this post?"
Because it's infallible.
"But how do you know it's infallible?"
Because it's the word of God.

I'm not trying to hate on anyone. I'm just wondering what the fundamental difference is between the truth of this and the truth of the Bible. I haven't received any intelligent response to this yet, but I hope that will change.

[stevencho]

I'm not trying to hate on anyone. I'm just wondering what the fundamental difference is between the truth of this and the truth of the Bible. I haven't received any intelligent response to this yet, but I hope that will change.

Because that isn't what the Bible says at all. The Bible never says straight people are superior to gay people or that gay people will be tortured in hell.

[YoshiStar]

Noo I didn't mean that. I was talking about the Bible's circular logic, not the difference in the content within it. What is the fundamental difference between the logic I've used and the logic many Christians use? In other words, what makes my post any less valid than the Bible? Or is this the part that requires that leap of faith?

[stevencho]

Noo I didn't mean that. I was talking about the Bible's circular logic. What is the fundamental difference between the logic I've used and the logic many Christians use?

Well I mean I guess there are some people who use the logic that the Bible is right therefore it's right. But I agree with you that that is idiotic logic. When I talk to people about the Bible I show them the usefulness and applicability it can have in their lives. In order for someone to truly change their life, they have to see the benefits the Bible can give them when they apply the principles and strategies. Of course no one is going to change their life just because I walk up to them and tell them that the Bible is the word of God and it is infallible.

[YoshiStar]

Well I mean I guess there are some people who use the logic that the Bible is right therefore it's right. But I agree with you that that is idiotic logic. When I talk to people about the Bible I show them the usefulness and applicability it can have in their lives. In order for someone to truly change their life, they have to see the benefits the Bible can give them when they apply the principles and strategies. Of course no one is going to change their life just because I walk up to them and tell them that the Bible is the word of God and it is infallible.

So that leads me to another question I have. Do people believe in it because it's true? Or do people believe in it for its benefits? What does believing in it really mean? Does it mean to think it's useful or does it mean to think it's fact? Because, of course, just cause something is helpful and makes you happy doesn't mean it's true.

[YoshiStar]

If anyone could reply to this it'd be great. I'm suuuper curious.

[Mariolee]

So that leads me to another question I have. Do people believe in it because it's true? Or do people believe in it for its benefits? What does believing in it really mean? Does it mean to think it's useful or does it mean to think it's fact? Because, of course, just cause something is helpful and makes you happy doesn't mean it's true.

Can't it be both? I don't see why believing in it because it has benefits has to be mutually exclusive in relation with being true necessarily, and there is no one reason as to why people follow Christianity just like there's no one reason that people like basketball. There has been a ton of solid research on the historicity of the Bible, and some people follow it for that. Others follow it because they've seen the positive change it has made in their loved one's lives. Some simply follow it because they believe it's good doctrine.

And that last statement is also reversible, just cause something seems good doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Like candy.

[YoshiStar]

Can't it be both? I don't see why believing in it because it has benefits has to be mutually exclusive in relation with being true necessarily, and there is no one reason as to why people follow Christianity just like there's no one reason that people like basketball. There has been a ton of solid research on the historicity of the Bible, and some people follow it for that. Others follow it because they've seen the positive change it has made in their loved one's lives. Some simply follow it because they believe it's good doctrine.

And that last statement is also reversible, just cause something seems good doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Like candy.

Yup, that's the split I'm talking about. Yes, there can be people who believe in both. But these people are one side of the split. They believe it's the truth from the start. For these people, the benefits are kinda the bonus. However, when you go into religion for its benefits, it is something you WANT to believe in because it makes you happy or helps in some way or the other. For example, Stevencho mentioned that for him it's about the usefulness of it all (if I didn't misunderstand him). For these people who go for the benefits of it, how can they truly BELIEVE in it? I'm interested in stevencho's response because even he said the circular logic is idiotic.

Of course, like you said, just because something seems good doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I never said that good things don't exist. My problem is when people believe in what they believe in BECAUSE it's good. They think good = true. Neither "good = true" nor "bad = true" make any sense. I know a lot of people who even use this "logic" in a debate. When we are discussing the truth, people sometimes respond with "But religion is good because it helps keep society in tact!"

[Mariolee]

Yup, that's the split I'm talking about. Yes, there can be people who believe in both. But these people are one side of the split. They believe it's the truth from the start. For these people, the benefits are kinda the bonus. However, when you go into religion for its benefits, it is something you WANT to believe in because it makes you happy or helps in some way or the other. For example, Stevencho mentioned that for him it's about the usefulness of it all (if I didn't misunderstand him). For these people who go for the benefits of it, how can they truly BELIEVE in it? I'm interested in stevencho's response because even he said the circular logic is idiotic.

Of course, like you said, just because something seems good doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I never said that good things don't exist. My problem is when people believe in what they believe in BECAUSE it's good. They think good = true. Neither "good = true" nor "bad = true" make any sense. I know a lot of people who even use this "logic" in a debate. When we are discussing the truth, people sometimes respond with "But religion is good because it helps keep society in tact!"

Well for those people who don't care for the research and the historicity of the Bible and whether it stands up to the historical standard, they truly are going through it by faith. Their proof lies in, as previously stated, the changes they have witnessed in their loved ones and personal lives that they attribute to God. That's how they believe in it. I'm not saying that's the most stable way to maintain a religious faith, because as soon as something crappy happens in their lives they either blame or don't believe in God, but I am simply answering your question in that they rely in what good they have witnessed.

And yes, I definitely agree with believing in something that seems good just because it's good is unstable, as explained above. But those are the people who simply don't care. :/

[SilentMan101]

Just wanna know, anyone else agree with this?

[Throavium]

Just wanna know, anyone else agree with this?

Is this a serious question?

[SilentMan101]

Is this a serious question?

Hey, some people think like that. But I believe a vast majority of people on here do not.